Dr. Joseph Allen is arguably the most well-known optometrist around the world thanks to his incredible YouTube channel Doctor Eye Health, which has well over 700,000 subscribers. But, Dr. Allen isn't just a social media celebrity. He is residency trained, a fellow of the American Academy of Optometry, and a Diplomate of the American Board of Optometry. In this episode, Dr. Allen shares some stories about what it has taken, personally and professionally, for him to achieve this level of success in his career. This interview will bring you a whole new level of appreciation for Joseph and Doctor Eye Health.
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Dr. Joseph Allen - The Story You Haven't Heard About Doctor Eye Health
Thank you so much for taking the time to join me here, to learn and grow. I'm happy to have you all. I'm always grateful for everybody who reads and even more importantly, everybody who shares, comments, and leaves a review. I am excited. I have one of my absolute favorite people here, Dr. Joseph Allen, whom most of you have heard of. If you haven't, make sure you read this whole episode because he is going to tell us a lot about what it's taken to get to the level that he's at. Dr. Joseph Allen, aka Doctor Eye Health, the biggest name in eye care online.
Not to overshadow his actual academic accomplishments. Dr. Joseph Allen graduated as salutatorian and magna cum laude from the Rosenberg School of Optometry. He is a residency trained. He's a fellow of the Academy of Optometry and a diplomat of the American Board of Optometry. He is a very impressive person, but also a super humble, kind, and friendly person. I'm happy to have you on the show. I’m happy to have you back.
Thank you. This is a huge honor for me. I read your show. I'm always impressed whenever we get together at any meeting. It's always a huge pleasure.
I've had you on the show a couple of times. The first time we did a little collaborative IG Live. We talk about the day in the life of an optometrist. The second time was during COVID. I did a panel discussion and you were generous to come on and share your insights at that time as well. The first time I had you on is in the early days of your YouTube channel. You had about 50,000 subscribers at that time, which even then was a mind-blowing number. Now, you're sitting at well over 700,000 subscribers. To me, that is unfathomable as somebody who a long time ago tried to start a YouTube channel. First of all, I want to know what does that mean to you? I know you're striving to increase that number and reach more people.
It's mind-blowing. When I started it, I didn't know if anybody was going to watch, follow or subscribe. I had the drive of like, “This is something useful. This is something people want to watch.” It didn't happen the way I thought it would. Some people have that idea when they start a YouTube channel, they say, “I'm going to build this social media account and I'm going to get all these followers,” and then they realize very quickly that it doesn't happen overnight. It's not going to come instantly.
You have to work hard to even get one person to hit that subscribe or follow button. There are unicorns out there. There are people's channels that will post one video and somehow they made 2 million subscribers off of that. Nobody can explain that. It's been a long journey. Every day when I see that 1, 300 or more people subscribed in a day, I try to be very thankful for that. People leave too. I have people who unsubscribe every day. Thankfully, the amount of people who do subscribe is more than the number of people who unsubscribe in a day.
You're heading in the right direction. There's no doubt. What's the target? Is there a number in your mind that you would reach and you would say, “I've made it,” or have you already surpassed that number?
I surpassed that already. When I hit 100,000, it shocked me. I was exhausted. That was right at the beginning of COVID. There was a lot going on at that time. I don't think I appreciated it at the time, but now that it's continued to build. I want to hit 1 million. That's a huge benchmark in the YouTube world. That's when they send you a big gold play button. It'll be a big moment for me at that time.
What is the plaque that you have?
That one is the Silver Play Button. When you break 100,000, they send you one of those. That was huge for me.
That seems like a massive milestone. I can see you get into the million the way that you're going. I knock on what I truly hope you do and I will be celebrating with you. We're going to talk a little bit more about some of the emotions and what happens behind the scenes because people don't see that enough and they see somebody like yourself or some other person on Instagram who created a big account and puts out content regularly.
They assume that they're just putting out content. They don't think about what goes into it. I want to rewind the clock a little bit and ask you, if I saw Joseph Allen at ten years old, would I be able to say, “I see that thing a personality trait, behavior, something in him that might lead to him becoming Doctor Eye Health?”
Maybe not necessarily a personality trait. At ten years old, I loved movies. I quoted movies all the time. I still do. I drive friends and family nuts because if there's a scenario that reminds me of a funny movie, I'll start acting out and quoting it. Some people who don't know what I'm referencing will be confused. I was always interested in technology. I played a lot of video games as a kid. If somebody didn't know how to get their VCR or DVDs. That's how old I am.
They didn't know how things work. I was the guy that would call over and I'd know what wires to plug in to get everything working. Even in high school, I was part of the Computer/AV Club. If the computer system broke down in high school, they would call me over the intercom to go fix something. Thinking back, I'm like, “I have at least slowly built up the general knowledge of, ‘How should this at least be built?’ The mechanical things of like, ‘I need to set up a camera, microphone, and lighting.’ I enjoy getting everything put together.”
One of the first times we spoke, I still remember this because, at that point, I had more YouTube videos than you did. This is a long time ago. We were chatting because you're like, “There's not a lot of optometrists in this space.” I was like, “Here are some of the settings I use,” then you asked me about color correction. I was like, “I have no idea. This guy only put out a few videos, but he's already way ahead of me as far as his knowledge in this arena. It's amazing I loved it. I'm going to stay glued to this man right here because I know his videos are going to be high quality.”
Clearly, there are certain traits that you've carried through from your younger years to now that help you enjoy and optimize what you're doing. I want to step away from the digital world for a second because something we were talking about offline is that I assume people see you online and just think that's what you do. It takes so much time to create the amount of content that you create. You are one of the most highly trained and educated optometrists that I know. You're still seeing patients. If you don't mind, describe to me what your day in the clinic is like and lead over to how do you balance that with all the YouTube stuff that you do.
The easy answer is that there isn't a balance. I'm in the clinic two days a week. I don't own a clinic myself. I work at a privately owned clinic, who is owned by two of my mentors. They're practicing fifteen years more than where I'm at. They have built an astounding dry eye anterior surface disease large-scale clinic. They're building their second location. We usually have 2 to 6 students a trimester. It's a big busy clinic and very focused on disease and practicing at the full of our scope in the state of Minnesota, where I live. On a typical clinic day, I'm seeing patients every twenty minutes or so, sometimes more if we have to double book or overbook.
My students are seeing patients in between which I have to go and then I see the patient, but also help teach the students by reviewing, “What made you make this decision? We should take a picture of that. What other technology could we use? What could help us make a better diagnosis?” I’m drilling them about medication options, “We're going to prescribe an oral medication. What type of oral medication options do we have? What if they're allergic to that? What other option?” You push them a little bit further.
Imagine challenges on your own clinical abilities too or forces you to stay on top of things.
I do enjoy and not only does it push me to teach the other students, but being in a clinic with a bunch of other specialists. We have a cornea contact lens specialist who's fitting Sclerals and Ortho-Ks. Dr. Trevor Fosso does some lectures. He knows so much more about those than I do, but I aspire to learn from him. I'm always asking him questions. We have a pediatric specialist that knows everything about myopia control that I could hope and dream for.
I have my mentor, Nicholas Colatrella. He does a lot of anterior surface disease, dry eye things, and a lot of amniotic membranes. I get to learn from him. Dr. Stacy Hinkemeyer, Dr. Colatrella’s wife and co-owner. She's in residency-trained ocular disease specialist as well. We have Dr. Shalon Ronning. We brought on a new student or a recent grad. We are always just pushing and learning. It's great.
Doctor Eye Health: We should constantly be pushing and learning.
There's a well-known quote, “You're the average of the five people you surround yourself with.” That's generally referred to in your personal life. To me, it occurred that could be applicable in your clinical career too. You used to work in a different office. Now, you came to this one. You've surrounded yourself with these experts in these different fields so you can absorb information from them. It's going to make you a better clinician as well.
There's a phrase, “You don't want to be the smartest person in the room. You always want to learn from other people.” That serves many purposes. First, “Who I am as a person?” I want to always be learning and striving to be a better doctor. In the world of YouTube when I started this, I knew I'm putting myself in a public space. I am an ambassador for our profession. I have to know my stuff. I have to make sure what I'm saying is accurate. I need to be on top of what's fresh and new. It helps me in both worlds.
You have been an ambassador. Continue to be a shining light for the optometry world. I can imagine the amount of awareness that you've brought to our profession in eyecare in general. The number of people you've been able to reach is incredible. It's far beyond what anybody else has been able to do. It's amazing. Let's go back to YouTube then. How many comments and emails do you get from people around the world, and how do you deal with them? I can only imagine your inbox must be flooded every morning.
It's a lot. First, there is the YouTube comment section. When I first started it, I was answering every single one. I'd be done with whatever else at 9:00 PM. I'd sit in front of the TV. I would have Netflix on, but I'd be sitting there commenting on every single comment on the channel. As the channel grew and more people jumped on, you cannot keep up with the comments. You got the other platforms, whether it be Facebook, Instagram, or TikTok. You have to accept the fact that you can't get to everybody. You got emails. I get emails. It's got some cool stuff because you get fired up when someone has a positive remark or they tell you, “Thank you,” or shares an in-depth story. You get for some people who give you negative feedback. That's how the internet is.
We call them keyboard warriors, the people who feel like they're somehow superheroes because they're sitting behind a screen and got a keyboard. What negative comments can people make? You're putting out educational content about eyes. What's somebody going to say? I can't even think of one, “The lighting in the background is not nice enough?”
People would pick small things. In one video I posted, I had a booger hanging, there is broccoli in my teeth, or people tried to correct me, saying that I'm wrong about this subject. People will argue, “Your dry eye is not caused by this and that. It's caused by soybean oil.” Who knows? Maybe there is some truth to that. There are a lot of claims people will make that aren't evidence-based or factual based. The tough thing is that I have to be in this space. I believe we owe it to our profession, the patients, or everybody reading. We have to be more evidence-based and have that. It makes it difficult sometimes to handle those comments.
We get those comments in the exam room. That's one patient at a time. Somebody asking, “I've heard that I can do exercises for my vision. This thing will help if I pour honey on my eyes,” or some random things. I'm like, “I don't know. Maybe?” I cannot say yes to that because there's no science behind it that I could. If you do it, then you come back and you say, “Harbir told me to do it. Now I'm in trouble.” That's one person at a time face to face. The number of comments you must get, I can't even imagine the craziness.
I put out the one video many years ago about nearsightedness and its causes. It gave a common understanding of what it wasn't. I can't tell you how many comments I got on that one video about, “This is made up. You want to sell glasses. The base method is the thing,” and so on. The question I have to ask is if somebody's trying to start their channel, can you give us some tips and tricks and advice on 4 or 5 things that you would recommend somebody do that would help them go on, and get on the right track?
That's a big thing. A lot of people don't realize that there's a lot that goes into building a channel. Number one is having clarity. Spending some time understanding why you want to be on social media. if you want to build a YouTube channel specifically, are you doing it because you want to build something as big as a channel as that I've made? You can build a channel specifically for the goal to just attract patients and bring them into your clinic. That could be your main goal. If that was my goal, the videos I would make would be a bit different from the videos I'm making, which is purely to build the channel independent from any clinic to be a resource of video education for the public.
Many people don't realize that there's a lot that goes into building a channel. Number one is clarity and spending time understanding why you want to be on social media.
Can you distinguish 1 or 2 things of what are you doing specifically to build your channel versus drawing patients in? Is there a certain hook, the way that you're talking, or things that you're doing that are geared to that?
I don't talk about the clinic where I work at. I don't advertise that. There are a few videos I've done more where we did a tour of the clinic or I talked about the dry eye testing that we do specifically at our clinic. That is amazing because, in that video I posted, I had two patients who traveled to come to see me as a provider specifically for their dry eye. One guy drove an hour and a half in Minnesota. This other gentleman flew from Dubai into the United States. He like, “This doctor who does dry eye lives in Minnesota.” He took an airplane to Minnesota, got a rental car, and drove all the way to our clinic to see me.
That's cool. In general, most of my videos are meant to keep people watching my videos. At some point in almost every video, I'm like, “If you want to know more about Demodex mites that we talked about, you can check out this other video I did all about Demodex mites.” I refer to it. At the end of the video, I'm like, “If this video helped you out, don't just hit the like button and subscribe, but you may also like this other complete playlist I built all about dry eye treatments specifically.”
It builds this idea that people can binge-watch all of my content. They can sit there for one hour and learn more. That is a little bit different. I'm not trying to tell people, “Come see me.” I'm telling people like, “This is all information I want you to know about.” People after a while, thankfully, are feeling comfortable enough with me that they say, “This guy knows this stuff. I want to go see him.” They're tracking me down.
We listen to a lot of podcasts. When you listen to one podcast for a long time, it's almost like you know the host or that person. You know the weird and quirky things they say. You know how they talk and personal things about them that come up through conversation. It's almost like you become friends with them. I can imagine people feel that way about you. I imagine if you put out how a little more frequently where you work, you'd probably have a lot of people showing up just to say hello or get a selfie with you. What else? How important are the lighting, the background, and that type of stuff?
You can get fixated on it and I have. I'm friends with other big people in the YouTube space now. There are channels that don't get fancy and they do amazing. It's about the quality of the content that you're putting out. Everyone worries about the camera picture. I've spent thousands of dollars on good cameras and lenses, but most of the time, if you have a mediocre-quality camera or whatever you're shooting with your phone, that's more than good enough. The audio does matter. To anybody, if you're going to start a YouTube channel, have a good microphone so that you can pick up good sound quality because if the sound is bad, people will be faster to skip off of it sooner.
Doctor Eye Health: Most of the time, if you have a mediocre-quality camera or whatever you're shooting with, that's more than good enough. But the audio does matter because if the sound is terrible, people will be fast to skip off of it sooner.
The quality of the content, having a good title, something that's catchy, having a good thumbnail so people understand by looking at the picture, “This is about dry eye. This is about eye disease or improving my eyesight.” They're able to click that video and in the first few seconds know that, “This is the video I want to watch. This person is speaking clearly. I can understand what they're saying. I understand what this video is going to deliver to me.” That is important. Worrying about the lighting and the quality of the camera picture and how things are set up is more vanity than anything.
All of your thumbnails have your own face. Your picture of you looking at something pointed or at least there's another image in the background that depicts what that video is going to be about. How important is it for your face to be on there? There are going to be some people who are a bit less comfortable with that.
That was a choice based on a lot of research. I didn't have any formal training in marketing and advertising. I didn't go to school to become a YouTuber or anything like that. I went to optometry school. When I started this out, it was not growing. I wasn't getting anybody watching. I spent a lot of time listening to podcasts or watching other YouTube videos and trying to learn from other people about how to build a YouTube channel. They've done marketing research and have found that, “People's facial expressions, do we become familiar with it?”
It invokes emotion. There are even small fine details of people with their mouths slightly open. People may more likely to click on that than somebody who has their mouth closed, and their eyes are popping open. They're able to see contrasting colors. There are a lot of people who constantly dig into the research of this and the psychology of why people click on it. I'm comfortable with my face on it, but I have some thumbnails that don't. If the videos on colorblind glasses, I have one that's colorblind glasses brand versus another. It doesn't have my face on it, and there are other ones.
We won't even go into the keyword thing and all of that because we'll be talking about that for days.
I'll have some CE that if people want to get into this, then they'll be able to come to see me and break down how I do it.
Come to Vancouver please and talk to it. I've alluded to this now a few times. I want to get to a little bit more of the personal stuff. We talk about your professional career, your YouTube, and your unbelievable 700,000 plus subscribers. Some of the stuff we've talked about offline over the last couple of years is, “What's going on behind the scenes? What are the challenges? What are some of the struggles?”
Let me phrase it to you this way. What is one thing you would want people to know about what it's taken you to build this channel up? I know you've already said that in the beginning, it wasn't growing that well, but personally, what would you share with us so people can understand a little bit more about what you've been working on and how much you've been working?
It's not easy for me. In fact, it’s something I do have to work on. I have to wake up every morning and tell myself, “I need to not only come up with another idea of a video,” that the video is on a certain topic and it could be a topic that's not necessarily a sexy topic in eye care. For example, tea tree oil. People have been asking if tea tree oil is good or bad for your eyes. That all stems from one research article that was published in early 2020 or 2019.
I had to research that and read probably 15 to 20 different articles all in tea tree oil and Demodex, and not just read the abstract, but request those articles, deep read those articles, know and understand the subject, and then find a way to structure that video that it's entertaining, addresses the problem, and gives a resolution and a call to action for people. It's a lot more challenging to put that all together, but then muster up the energy to be on camera, look excited, and show that emotion. Once you're done, pull it over to a computer and sit in front of that computer for maybe 6 to 10 hours, hearing your own voice over and over, all the times you said the wrong word, slurred your words, or the retakes.
I'm running a TV channel about eye care. When you're mostly a one-person job, it is stressful, especially considering I make a lot of my own income off of the channel. I still work in the clinic two days a week, but a lot of my income is based on how good the channel does. It runs as a business, then I have the stress of like, “I have to do this and I have to do it well because the better it does, potentially not only more viewers, but more income it may make for the channel and to keep me able making stuff.”
The kind of stuff that most people don't see is, “Turn on a camera and you'd say something about a topic,” but reading fifteen articles about tea tree oil. There's pretty much nothing you could do. You'd have to pay me for sure. Other than that, there's nothing you could do to convince me to do that and to make it interesting. The other part that a lot of people don't see or think about is the editing part. I know that you do enjoy that to some degree. I enjoy it too. When you sit down and edit, it's amazing to see it come together. Once a month or something, I enjoy doing that. Do you do two videos a week?
I do one full video a week. It's been my goal to get to two videos a week. I found that when I push myself that hard, I would burn out and the quality would go down.
To spend that many hours in front of a screen to edit one video is incredible. That's a lot of work that many people don't see. Everybody sees that five-minute video at the end of it. How many hours went into it, the stress of it, or the time spent reading? That's the thing I wanted to highlight and bring forward. When people know that, they appreciate your content a lot more, at least I know I do.
If there was a blooper reel of all the times I've said the same sentence or paragraph 2 or 3 times because I stumbled over my words, used the slightly incorrect word or there are videos where I've had to decide, “I didn't notice this when I first shot it, but in editing, I'm seeing like I misspelled the word inflammatory behind me.” There are things you have to learn to laugh at yourself.
In that case, you have to rerecord the whole thing.
In that specific case, I would've had to. When you do something like that, you think, “This isn't a sexy topic. Maybe only a few thousand people will ever see it. It's not a big deal.” In that case, that video happens to have over 1 million views now. I know that some companies are even showing it during like CE lectures and things like that to other doctors. I'm honored, but at the same time, it's like embarrassing.
Pick one where I haven't made a spelling mistake.
The true reality is that we are all human and we all make mistakes. It helped me in my own personal development in dealing with the stress of being a healthcare professional because a lot of us, especially those coming out of school, get this feeling that we need to know everything and be right about everything.
The reality is that you're human first. You're a human before you're a doctor. Understanding that you weren't born knowing all this stuff. You had to learn it through school, reading articles, listening to mentors, and getting experience. That changed my own mindset even about making mistakes in YouTube videos. Sometimes it's like, “I can redo that.” Sometimes you got to be like, “It's more important that I'm getting this information out there right now, this day than it is for me to spend another twelve hours remaking a video.”
Many of us, especially coming out of school, feel that we need to know everything and be right about everything. The reality is you're human first. You're a human before you're a doctor.
I was referencing this quote in another show, “Done is better than perfect.” That is the better way to phrase it. There are a lot of people who dwell on perfection and making sure every little detail is correct, but getting the content out there, and doing the thing is the more important thing. The next time around, you can improve it. I understand that for some people, it's easier said than done. What would you say has been the biggest challenge that you've faced in this whole journey of yours?
That's a tough one. I may have to think about that.
Let me ask you another one. Is there a point where you didn't want to make another video? Have you felt like quitting?
Maybe not all the time, but it does come frequently. Early on when I first started it, after about 1 or 2 months, I hit an existential crisis because I was spending so much time not just planning my content, but learning how to shoot content, edit, playing around with the editing software. You work all day. At that time I was working 5 or 6 days a week and still making content. I'd come home and sit in front of the computer until 10:00 to 11:00 at night. I'd do that every day trying to make one video, then launch it and five people watch it like nobody watches it.
That was going on for 1 month or 2. Nobody watching or subscribing. I had eight subscribers and they were all my family and friends. You'd go on there and try to find the channel. It wasn't even coming up because, at that time, when you first started a channel, YouTube doesn't even realize who you are or where you fit in the web of everything that exists on YouTube. I was like, “What am I doing this for? Why am I spending so much time on the weekends, on Saturdays?”
I'm at the clinic for eight hours with my gear, shooting a video by myself and doing hundreds of retakes because I keep on saying things wrong and I'm nervous. I feel like I look and sound funny. I'm thinking, “My friends are out. They're going on a hike, to a movie theater, or out to dinner. They're doing all this fun stuff on the weekend, and I'm sitting here still working. Why am I doing this?” That was so early. I wasn't making any money from the whole deal. It was tough. I'm very thankful that at that time, one of my good friends, Alex lives in Texas.
I was telling him about it. He's like, “You're being too hard on yourself. How about you dial it back? Stop trying to push out one video a week. Why don't you do one video for 1 month or every 2 months, whatever works for you in your time? At the end of it, you'll at least have a nice library of some videos to share with patients, or be able to be like, ‘Look at this cool stuff I made?’” That took some pressure off my shoulders. I kept on with it, but slower, then the channel started taking off a few months later.
Now the challenge is that with such a big channel, with many followers, and then the pressure of being like, “You've had all this success, what's next?” It’s like, “I'm still trying to make the video for next week. What if that video only gets 4,000 views instead of 100,000 like other videos?” You feel like you're not doing as good of a job, that somehow your video's not as important as the other ones.
You have these inner battles of perfectionism and the voice is telling you you're not doing something good enough or there is something wrong with the lighting or the camera, what you're saying isn't accurate, or that your own personality isn't as entertaining or attractive as some other YouTuber, doctor, or professional. I'm thankful I have a therapist now. It brings up a lot of deeper emotions of self-doubt and self-criticism. That's probably the biggest and hardest challenge I think.
I appreciate you sharing that because there are a lot of personal feelings coming through. I enjoyed talking to you work your way through that. I felt like I resonated personally with so much of what you're saying. That's why I'm grateful that you were open to sharing that with us here because I guarantee you 100% that there are many people out there and I bet readers resonated with something that you said there at some point, if not multiple things that you said.
There's that impostor syndrome sometimes people get, or the pressure once they are achieving more and better or in the beginning stages where you think, “What's the point of any all of this? Nobody's even watching or paying attention.” Many people are going to be feeling that. The point of this whole show is to share those stories so other people in our industry can say, “I can do this too. I can do the thing that I want to do as well. It's not going to be easy or a straight path. it's going to be a struggle, but Joseph and somebody else did it. They got through it. I can do it too.”
The biggest thing that has helped me, and what I've even told the other professionals who are thinking about getting into the social media space of talking about their passion and our profession is that it's very easy for us to get hung up on how we look or sound, “Am I professional enough? Am I saying this correctly?” and those self-doubts. Unfortunately, when you break it down and think about it, that's self-centered.
Doctor Eye Health: It's easy for us to get hung up on how we look or sound. When you break it down and think about it, that is very self-centered. The reality is if you're making content, you’re making it for another person and not for personal reasons. You’re doing it for somebody out there who needs it.
The reality is that if you're doing this and you're making content for another person like, “I'm not necessarily making a YouTube video for my own personal reasons. I'm doing it because I know that there's somebody out there right now who is struggling because their doctor said something about glaucoma, but they don't know what it is. They were either afraid to ask their doctor or their doctor told them ten minutes of something, but they only heard the two words, ‘You have glaucoma. You could go blind,’ or something. I need to step up and make this an educational five-minute video. The hope that this person will find it, watch it, and be like, ‘I get it now. That's why I need to take these eye drops. That's why I need to keep seeing my doctor.’”
My hope is that I'm doing this not for myself. I'm doing it because it's going to help somebody. If anything, it's going to encourage them to go back and see their local doctor and ask them the appropriate questions. Thinking about that helps me overcome my own anxieties and self-doubt. I hope the readers can maybe take that as motivation if they ever want to step into the space.
I didn't think of it that way, but it is that powerful to think about. You're being selfish if you're just worried about how you look and sound. It's more about getting that information to the person whom you're creating the information for and helping somebody. That's powerful. I love that. Do you feel you are successful?
Let me tell you why I'm asking questions like this. This is my own personal development. I would tell my own quick little story here. I did a series of interviews with leaders in these various organizations. I had to mentally prepare myself to interview these people. Part of this interview is a friendly conversation. We're friends. We can joke and stuff, but I didn't want to have that type of conversation with those people.
I had to mentally get myself in the state of mind to ask a question and keep a straight face. I feel like that energy is transferring over to spilling to the following interviews that I'm doing now. I would love to know your personal insights, not just the surface level like, “You're a big YouTube star. What's that like?” Feel free to not answer or give an answer that you're comfortable with. It's all good. I think somebody would look at you and say, “He's successful.” Do you feel that way?
Probably, no. I loved that you had all of those interviews. It takes a lot of courage to do that. In fact, I think those are the hard conversations that we, as a profession, should be discussing. Our professionals are discussing those issues behind closed doors. You and I know that at every meeting, we're talking about these concerns and potentially, how they may impact us individually and our profession down the road, whether it be happening in Canada or the US. The fact that we're not publicly talking about this or inviting people like you've done from these companies or from these players in the industry to discuss these things is a huge failure. We need to be talking about this. Thank you for bringing so much to light.
To go back to your question, do I feel successful? What does success mean to me? That is a tough question. If you would've asked me when I was first finishing optometry school, success was graduating optometry school, then getting through residency, a job, and paying off student loans. Once I completed all those tasks, I felt a bit lost. I've entered a world of much more self-reflection and battles within my own head. I’m still trying to find what success means to me, maybe not even trying to find success, maybe just trying to be comfortable with myself, enjoying life, and being surrounded by friends and family. What would I find value in that's beyond money or accolades and all of that?
The older I get, the more I feel that way as well. I question myself as to exactly what success means. It's more about living in the moment, enjoying who you are, and being happy within your own being and own body. That's my definition of success these days, but it's always changing. I wanted to see if you had any thoughts on that because from the outside looking in, somebody's going to say, “Look at that, 700,000 subs. He's successful.” What's next for Doctor Eye Health or for Joseph Allen? What's the plan? What are you doing? What are we going to look for?
This is something I've been spending more time on. I've been doing a lot of journaling and trying to think goal-oriented like, “What is something that I would like to accomplish and get off my bucket list?” Next, I am maybe contemplating the idea of having a podcast and talking more about optometry, but more about doctors, not so much about the general consumer. I’m writing CE. I want to get into that realm and potentially write a book, whether it be about YouTube, healthcare, or optometry. That's something on my bucket list. I want to write and get something published like writing a book.
At some point, we'll see a gold plaque in the back there.
That'll be huge. I'll be very honored. I don't want to just do it for myself, but also to be like, “This is for like the profession of optometry. This is a representation that our profession matters.” Even one time, the surgeon I worked with a few years ago was like, “Whoever thought people would be this interested in eyes?” We've got our little club of eye doctors who are super passionate about it, but whoever just knew the general public would be so interested.
I started making those YouTube videos. It was in 2012. It's funny because multiple people told me, “It's nice what you're doing. It's fun to watch, but not a lot of people are going to watch videos about eyes.” That's not the reason I stopped. People were saying that. I'm not surprised to hear people would've said that to you a little while ago. I'd be surprised if somebody said that now after seeing your YouTube channel. We underestimate how many people there are in the world and how many potentially may be interested in a certain topic. It's cool that you pursued it and that you could show everybody that no matter how small or niche of a topic it is, there are going to be people out there.
I'm not the only doctor who's making content on YouTube. I'm quite honored that I've inspired several of these other channels and other doctors to do. I may never be always the largest channel out there. These other doctors may be better at making content. They may make more viral content than me. I'm thankful for what success I have had, that I've been able to reach and help many people with their knowledge, even enough to go to their doctor and ask the right questions so that they can get better treatment.
I may not be the largest channel out there. Other doctors may be better at making content or making more viral content than me. But I am very thankful for what success I have had and that I've been able to reach and help so many people.
There are always two questions I ask every guest before we wrap up. I asked you these before you came on the panel. I would feel more complete in this interview if I asked you them again. You may or may not remember what you answered at that time because that was many years ago.
I'm a different person now. A lot happens.
Those were lockdown days. It was a long time ago. The first one is if you could hop in a time machine and go back to a point in your life when you were struggling, and it could be recent or many years ago, you could share that moment if you're open to it, but more importantly, what advice would you give yourself in that moment of difficulty?
I'll be vulnerable and open up about this. I'm dealing with divorce. I had a dark time, not just with losing the relationship. The relationship has dissolved. You enter these dark times when you have a lot of questions and you reflect. You think that either nobody cares or you've done something wrong, that you're somehow less than other people. In these dark times when you have these thoughts that you feel like there's nothing for you to keep going, there's no sunrise on the other end. You lose hope.
In these dark times where I've had, I've been thankful that I do have friends, family, and my coworkers, the other doctors I work with at the clinic. They care about me. There are many people that do care that you exist and that you are in this world. They care what you do. This is even more important. You are more than optometry.
Harbir, you are more than your show. Your profession and what you do is a small nugget on the outside of who you are as a person. You're a friend and a husband, you have a sense of humor, intelligence, drive, passion, and dreams. I'm not jumping on this show because you have a cool, awesome show. I'm jumping on this because I like you as a person. That is more valuable than your profession, YouTube channel, show, a book you write, or even your job as an optometrist or the clinic you own. It's about you, not necessarily the work you do.
Thank you for being vulnerable and open in sharing that. I appreciate that. I hoped we would be able to have an open discussion. You have gone all in. You've blown me away with how much you've been open to sharing about yourself and helping us understand who you are more than just the YouTube person. The final question is in everything that you've accomplished to this point, how much of it would you say is due to luck, and how much is hard work?
I do put a lot of work and hard work into everything. There is some luck. There’s a 70% and 30% split or something like that. It's 70% hard work and 30% luck. I was born to a middle-class family with an educated father. Both my parents were very well educated. My father happened to go to college. My mother didn't, which was a shame because she's brilliant. All of the opportunities that led me to the place that I am now, there's some luck in that I was even born in this generation and this time.
You could answer 70/30 and stop talking, but that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for exactly what you did there and giving that description. You're more generous than a lot of guests. Not to take anything away from other people, hard work is hard work. You can't sit in a room by yourself and hope that something magical is going to happen. You have to get out there and do the work. A lot of people will say, “99% hard work.” Hashing it out the way you did. The fact that you were born, where and when you were born are all very important things that we don't have any control over. I appreciate that. Any last words of wisdom you want to share before we wrap up?
You're making me think, “I need something profound.”
Give some Michael Scott quotes. That'll be a perfect way to end. If you missed 100% of the shots, you don't take Wayne Gretzky or Michael Scott.
There are many good quotes from The Office. I didn't watch The Office. I'm newly going through it. I love it when he's drinking white wine, smells it, and is like, “This is white.”
A great way to end the show with a nice laugh and a nice joke. Thank you so much. I appreciate this so much. This interview was everything I was hoping it would be, if not more. You are candid and open. You're like a shining light for the profession. Everything you're doing, the number of people you're reaching, and the amount of awareness you're creating are incredible. I don't want anyone to overlook the fact that you are highly trained and still seeing patients at such a high level. I appreciate on that level that you're pushing the profession forward as well. Thank you.
This is a huge honor for me. I appreciate it.
Thank you to everybody who's reading. Make sure you share it. This is one of my absolute favorite interviews. Please make sure you take a screenshot, put it on Instagram, throw it up on LinkedIn, and send a text message to a friend. Hit like and subscribe. There's a whole bunch of stuff you're supposed to do. Please go ahead and do it. Make sure you let me know what you thought. I always love hearing the feedback. We'll see you guys again in the next episode.
See you.
Important Links
Episode 11 - A Day In The Life Of An Optometrist With Doctor Eye Health (Aka Dr. Joseph Allen) – Past Episode
YouTube channel – Doctor Eye Health
YouTube – Dr. Habir Sian
About Dr. Joseph Allen
Dr. Joseph J. Allen is a practicing optometrist in Minnesota and the founder of Doctor Eye Health, an educational YouTube channel with more than 700K subscribers. There he provides information about eye health, ocular disease and vision products. His videos cover a range of topics that his subscribers frequently ask about: eye floaters, glaucoma, dry eye syndrome, contact lenses, eyeglasses, and more.
Dr. Allen has been featured in Ask Men and Oprah Daily and was awarded the Media Advocacy award from the American Optometric Association in 2021. In his free time, he enjoys rock climbing, running, playing video games, hiking, and biking.